Lot of casual fans out there who think Sascha's grand slam woes are purely him being "mentally weak".
I could be wrong, but I think the order of events is that his forehand mechanics let him down, then he gets negative, and then his mechanics worsen.
His struggles at slams remind me of when you talked about how the Big 3's techniques wouldn't falter during pressure situations, and that allowed them to save so many break points / break so many serves. You said that the best of the best are able to maintain their level when the going gets tough.
And I think it can become more mental over time. Forehand mechanics let you down, get negative, mechanics worsen under pressure/swing slower. But after a lot of losses and poor forehand performances in big matches, that shot gets even more scrutinised/talked about/in the player's head.
A question I have and that I'll try and phrase as best as I can given my low level of knowledge regarding stroke mechanics and, especially, grips:
Is Zverev's recent changes to a more conservative/eastern grip (while not as conservative as Agassi's) a blessing or actually a bad thing given his flexed wrist setup?
As you mentioned in this piece and multiple times prior (earliest I remember is when we discussed Bautista-Agut's unsung forehand at the backend), more conservative grips can get away with less racket head speed, so technically that's good for Zverev.
However, what those guys don't have but Zverev does is that flexion of the wrist that makes the flip very whippy. And in that case, compared to other flexed wrist FHs, I also remember you saying multiple times (including in Gill's podcast), having a more extreme grip (Musetti, Khachanov...) may be lesser of an issue because you're gonna make contact with more flexion. More conservative ones like Paul, Zverev, Hurkacz have that moving part because they need to extend to make contact.
All in all, I think unlike Alcaraz's backhand, he is now in an un-happy medium: not as conservative as RBA/Agassi to get away with the outside hands setup, not extreme enough to remove a moving part like some other flexed-wrist FHs. But I may be off-base completely, or simply repeating something you tried to convey in a less intelligible way.
2) I believe Felix also is in that flexed-wrist (not necessarly on setup but he loosens at some point), eastern grip category in a way. But I don't wanna beat a dead horse.
Hard to tell. This is where it gets messy and complicated. He's had good results/forehand days as it is now with something more eastern, but yes if he went more extreme the other way he could make contact with less extension/make the wrist mechanics quieter, but would need more speed/harder to time the low ball etc.
I love the fact you have brought in the Agassi forehand to this discussion on the forehand, the Bruce Lee one inch punch of tennis. Agassi was the first player that could truly do damage off both wings, nowhere to go. Another player I think that may be preceded Agassi with this 1 inch punch forehand was Aaron Kriekstein. Fognini seems to have this type of forehand also. I read an article one time that said that when Jose Higueres worked to redo the Justine Henin forehand, which to me is one of the very best WTA forehands ever, he used Andre's as the template. I am really looking forward to your deeper dive into the forehand realm.
Gill really threw you into the fire by posing a sincaraz question as the very first segment of the podcast
Additionally, related to zverev’s various grips, I have a friend who claims that pros change their forehand grip on a regular basis (i.e. mid match). He was good as a junior and practiced with pros sometimes, zverev being one of them. He used zverev as one of his examples of a pro fluidly changing grips. Is there any truth to this claim?
I'm not aware of pros changing forehand grips mid match. Zverev has changed his grip over the course of his career. I think if you asked most pros they have one grip for the forehand.
Great piece, love the depth. Just to touch on one of the smaller points in here regarding Alcaraz's BH. Having not watched him as persistently of late compared to a year or two ago, I feel like there's such a notable difference now with his setup at RG in how he controls his fallout.
Went to compare a couple more clips side by side myself and the only difference I can see at first glance is the racket position. The snap motion with the high power position and early-to-commit upright stance always got him into trouble (relatively speaking, of course) against short, loopy balls into that wing because he would find himself stretching for contact whilst using a swing that involved heavy acceleration and quite low margins as a result. His directional control was great then as it is now, but it feels like taking that racket down and reducing the length of the swing path is perhaps why he looks so much more comfortable not over-committing, even when approaching similar balls the same way he always did. No longer is his racket pushing so aggressively through and over his shoulder to the point that he has to kick out his left leg in order to regain balance; now he seems better equipped to shorten the follow-through or control the pace of it better, which is leading to more balanced body positions post-shot, enabling him to balance out the shot by pushing his left foot inside instead.
Did, however, feel like he struggled to go blow-for-blow in the ad court when really pushed back by Jannik's depth. Obviously, given anything remotely shy of that length, he was able to redirect so seamlessly and dangerously, but when forced back, that outside setup and snap motion felt like it still struggled with finding the outside of the ball and timing it, so he resorted to some much weaker chip BHs in these cases. Thankfully for him, it's rare you can bully him like that for more than a shot or two at a time before something comes his way that he can then flip the rally with, especially on clay.
Ok, after watching the whole of that Djokovic-Zverev practice, I think the contrast between Djokovic’s forehand and Zverev’s is astonishing. Watch Djokovic: right knee stays bent through the shot, right side stays firm. There’s forward impulse into the shot, but it’s incredibly consistent because his body is not noisy.
Zverev hits the ball fine on the fh a lot of the time, especially on the in-out forehand, but other times the leg straightens to give him space and the hips rotate or fall off the ball. If he doesn’t get his feet just right, it goes badly. Noticeable how on his backhand his knee stays bent and the hips stay balanced. Result: stellar backhand.
It’s very noticeable in the section of the practice where they do 3 cross 1 line: he does poorly in it and his forehand is all over the place (relatively).
I’m not sure I’d point to his grip or racket so much as a lousy kinetic chain. If I were coaching him 😬 that’s where I’d start: keep your knees static, rotate at the trunk. Like he does on your backhand.
This is such a great piece, and it wonderfully compliments your talk with Gill Gross. I don’t know if you saw Sinner’s match against Bublik in Halle—I agree that the camera angle is terrible—but if you did, I’d like to ask what you thought of it. My thought is that it was in no way a bad loss. After the first set, Bublik played unbelievably well; and Sinner did not play badly. In fact, I would put Bublik fifth on my Wimbeldon power rankings, behind only Alcaraz, Sinner, Djokovic, and Draper. I doubt he can play as well as he did in that match for an entire tournament, but I feel that he would have beaten anyone he played on that day.
Bublik certainly peaking on grass at a time when there isn't a lot of grass pedigree, so if I were to do some sort of power ranking, he would certainly be on it!
Such sharp analysis!! Unfortunate for Sasha that his height really doesn't help him here with his forehand. In a BO5, I just can't see how he overcomes his inconsistency. He also seems to have the least tennis sense of the top 10...though maybe that's just a side effect of his mechanical issues. One thing leads to another, like dominos falling.
A great video with Gill. A shame the Sinncaraz question happened so early as it meant die-hard fans got triggered and couldn’t focus on anything else afterwards, but the silent majority appreciated it. I guess that’s the faith reserved to those huge rivalries
My very amateur observation of the difference between the Agassi v Zverev fh in those clips at the end is: Agassi’s weight is going in through the ball - the R leg is forcing forwards. Short, explosive, efficient.
Zverev by contrast is struggling to get his body out of the way - notice the R leg is pushing him sideways, because the start of the swing shapes up for a close contact but the straightening of the arm means he’s now too close so the R leg locks and pushes, but not in the direction of the shot. Lot of lost energy there too. (Relatively.).
For rec players struggling with their forehand setup like Zverev and Khachanov, would you recommend trying to change the grip to a more conservative grip or changing the racket setup instead to be more like fed/alcaraz.
At the rec level you need to focus on footwork and positioning. Give yourself the best chance to make contact at your ideal height -- between the knee and waist. If you constantly hit balls high/long you could make the grip more extreme slightly. If you miss net go the other way. You want to try and let the ball coach you as much as possible. I'm kind of against teaching a certain setup mechanic at any great depth with rec players because in my experience they haven't mastered the fundamentals of perception (reading the incoming shot), and reception (early preparation so as to not be rushed; footwork positioning).
Love the technique deep dives. Would love an ongoing series on the more unique/quirky pro players (like say Mannarino with his hyper-low tension setup that he adopted after wrist problems)
A ‘noisy’ analysis. Look at the trajectory of the Zverev forehands in game play or these clips. He hits topspin forehands with little ability (for his level) to vary from this.
Lot of casual fans out there who think Sascha's grand slam woes are purely him being "mentally weak".
I could be wrong, but I think the order of events is that his forehand mechanics let him down, then he gets negative, and then his mechanics worsen.
His struggles at slams remind me of when you talked about how the Big 3's techniques wouldn't falter during pressure situations, and that allowed them to save so many break points / break so many serves. You said that the best of the best are able to maintain their level when the going gets tough.
And I think it can become more mental over time. Forehand mechanics let you down, get negative, mechanics worsen under pressure/swing slower. But after a lot of losses and poor forehand performances in big matches, that shot gets even more scrutinised/talked about/in the player's head.
A question I have and that I'll try and phrase as best as I can given my low level of knowledge regarding stroke mechanics and, especially, grips:
Is Zverev's recent changes to a more conservative/eastern grip (while not as conservative as Agassi's) a blessing or actually a bad thing given his flexed wrist setup?
As you mentioned in this piece and multiple times prior (earliest I remember is when we discussed Bautista-Agut's unsung forehand at the backend), more conservative grips can get away with less racket head speed, so technically that's good for Zverev.
However, what those guys don't have but Zverev does is that flexion of the wrist that makes the flip very whippy. And in that case, compared to other flexed wrist FHs, I also remember you saying multiple times (including in Gill's podcast), having a more extreme grip (Musetti, Khachanov...) may be lesser of an issue because you're gonna make contact with more flexion. More conservative ones like Paul, Zverev, Hurkacz have that moving part because they need to extend to make contact.
All in all, I think unlike Alcaraz's backhand, he is now in an un-happy medium: not as conservative as RBA/Agassi to get away with the outside hands setup, not extreme enough to remove a moving part like some other flexed-wrist FHs. But I may be off-base completely, or simply repeating something you tried to convey in a less intelligible way.
2) I believe Felix also is in that flexed-wrist (not necessarly on setup but he loosens at some point), eastern grip category in a way. But I don't wanna beat a dead horse.
Hard to tell. This is where it gets messy and complicated. He's had good results/forehand days as it is now with something more eastern, but yes if he went more extreme the other way he could make contact with less extension/make the wrist mechanics quieter, but would need more speed/harder to time the low ball etc.
I love the fact you have brought in the Agassi forehand to this discussion on the forehand, the Bruce Lee one inch punch of tennis. Agassi was the first player that could truly do damage off both wings, nowhere to go. Another player I think that may be preceded Agassi with this 1 inch punch forehand was Aaron Kriekstein. Fognini seems to have this type of forehand also. I read an article one time that said that when Jose Higueres worked to redo the Justine Henin forehand, which to me is one of the very best WTA forehands ever, he used Andre's as the template. I am really looking forward to your deeper dive into the forehand realm.
Correction, it was Carlos Rodriguez that worked with Justine to redo her forehand using Agassi as a template.
Gill really threw you into the fire by posing a sincaraz question as the very first segment of the podcast
Additionally, related to zverev’s various grips, I have a friend who claims that pros change their forehand grip on a regular basis (i.e. mid match). He was good as a junior and practiced with pros sometimes, zverev being one of them. He used zverev as one of his examples of a pro fluidly changing grips. Is there any truth to this claim?
I'm not aware of pros changing forehand grips mid match. Zverev has changed his grip over the course of his career. I think if you asked most pros they have one grip for the forehand.
Great piece, love the depth. Just to touch on one of the smaller points in here regarding Alcaraz's BH. Having not watched him as persistently of late compared to a year or two ago, I feel like there's such a notable difference now with his setup at RG in how he controls his fallout.
Went to compare a couple more clips side by side myself and the only difference I can see at first glance is the racket position. The snap motion with the high power position and early-to-commit upright stance always got him into trouble (relatively speaking, of course) against short, loopy balls into that wing because he would find himself stretching for contact whilst using a swing that involved heavy acceleration and quite low margins as a result. His directional control was great then as it is now, but it feels like taking that racket down and reducing the length of the swing path is perhaps why he looks so much more comfortable not over-committing, even when approaching similar balls the same way he always did. No longer is his racket pushing so aggressively through and over his shoulder to the point that he has to kick out his left leg in order to regain balance; now he seems better equipped to shorten the follow-through or control the pace of it better, which is leading to more balanced body positions post-shot, enabling him to balance out the shot by pushing his left foot inside instead.
Did, however, feel like he struggled to go blow-for-blow in the ad court when really pushed back by Jannik's depth. Obviously, given anything remotely shy of that length, he was able to redirect so seamlessly and dangerously, but when forced back, that outside setup and snap motion felt like it still struggled with finding the outside of the ball and timing it, so he resorted to some much weaker chip BHs in these cases. Thankfully for him, it's rare you can bully him like that for more than a shot or two at a time before something comes his way that he can then flip the rally with, especially on clay.
Ok, after watching the whole of that Djokovic-Zverev practice, I think the contrast between Djokovic’s forehand and Zverev’s is astonishing. Watch Djokovic: right knee stays bent through the shot, right side stays firm. There’s forward impulse into the shot, but it’s incredibly consistent because his body is not noisy.
Zverev hits the ball fine on the fh a lot of the time, especially on the in-out forehand, but other times the leg straightens to give him space and the hips rotate or fall off the ball. If he doesn’t get his feet just right, it goes badly. Noticeable how on his backhand his knee stays bent and the hips stay balanced. Result: stellar backhand.
It’s very noticeable in the section of the practice where they do 3 cross 1 line: he does poorly in it and his forehand is all over the place (relatively).
I’m not sure I’d point to his grip or racket so much as a lousy kinetic chain. If I were coaching him 😬 that’s where I’d start: keep your knees static, rotate at the trunk. Like he does on your backhand.
This is such a great piece, and it wonderfully compliments your talk with Gill Gross. I don’t know if you saw Sinner’s match against Bublik in Halle—I agree that the camera angle is terrible—but if you did, I’d like to ask what you thought of it. My thought is that it was in no way a bad loss. After the first set, Bublik played unbelievably well; and Sinner did not play badly. In fact, I would put Bublik fifth on my Wimbeldon power rankings, behind only Alcaraz, Sinner, Djokovic, and Draper. I doubt he can play as well as he did in that match for an entire tournament, but I feel that he would have beaten anyone he played on that day.
Bublik certainly peaking on grass at a time when there isn't a lot of grass pedigree, so if I were to do some sort of power ranking, he would certainly be on it!
Such sharp analysis!! Unfortunate for Sasha that his height really doesn't help him here with his forehand. In a BO5, I just can't see how he overcomes his inconsistency. He also seems to have the least tennis sense of the top 10...though maybe that's just a side effect of his mechanical issues. One thing leads to another, like dominos falling.
We all want an analysis of Bublik's recent performances.
I'll see if I can work something in to a piece in the nxt couple of weeks.
I’ll settle for a mention in the Wimbledon draw piece. But fascinating, right? A real threat right now!
Hi Gill,
A great video with Gill. A shame the Sinncaraz question happened so early as it meant die-hard fans got triggered and couldn’t focus on anything else afterwards, but the silent majority appreciated it. I guess that’s the faith reserved to those huge rivalries
My very amateur observation of the difference between the Agassi v Zverev fh in those clips at the end is: Agassi’s weight is going in through the ball - the R leg is forcing forwards. Short, explosive, efficient.
Zverev by contrast is struggling to get his body out of the way - notice the R leg is pushing him sideways, because the start of the swing shapes up for a close contact but the straightening of the arm means he’s now too close so the R leg locks and pushes, but not in the direction of the shot. Lot of lost energy there too. (Relatively.).
Also, at the amateur level, the most common forehand mistake I see is getting too close to the ball. Tyrannosaurus rex had a terrible forehand too.
For rec players struggling with their forehand setup like Zverev and Khachanov, would you recommend trying to change the grip to a more conservative grip or changing the racket setup instead to be more like fed/alcaraz.
At the rec level you need to focus on footwork and positioning. Give yourself the best chance to make contact at your ideal height -- between the knee and waist. If you constantly hit balls high/long you could make the grip more extreme slightly. If you miss net go the other way. You want to try and let the ball coach you as much as possible. I'm kind of against teaching a certain setup mechanic at any great depth with rec players because in my experience they haven't mastered the fundamentals of perception (reading the incoming shot), and reception (early preparation so as to not be rushed; footwork positioning).
Love the technique deep dives. Would love an ongoing series on the more unique/quirky pro players (like say Mannarino with his hyper-low tension setup that he adopted after wrist problems)
A ‘noisy’ analysis. Look at the trajectory of the Zverev forehands in game play or these clips. He hits topspin forehands with little ability (for his level) to vary from this.