One more question. Grigor seems to have a really good running forehand. He really defends well on that side. Also wondering what your thoughts are on his running forehand. As you noted, Sampras was the king a couple of generations ago. It feels like he could hit that running wide forehand really well. It was make or break but he pulled it off enough to scare opponents when they made him run wide.
In general I think eastern forehands have an advantage on the run (i.e., once your legs can't be used in service of power as much) because that grip can generate linear power more naturally compared to more extreme grips.
Not very complicated to see what happens in this one. The slice helped but it was not enough against a player that can win on automatic pilot these days.
Dimitrov is looking like and up and comer this fall. His serve has lost some of its hitch. But not enough. That is why I think it goes off on him. Without the fluidity of a very good server it will always be a bit of a lottery. Under pressure he will almost always miss his first serve. Meanwhile, Djokovic's looks silky smooth these days. He even hit a second serve ace. The other issue for Dimitrov and it looks like it is true of many one handers is that they are not Stan. I know I sound like a broken record but he is the only one who really dominated off that wing. He could hit winners and his slice was solid. Dimitrov's game looks better but the only way to really climb would be to loosen up on the serve once and for all. If he could create a more fluid serve, my guess is that it would be more reliable and that he could ride it out more.
I have been watching Grigor and feeling that he is worth watching because he reminds me so much of Roger. Then, I see just a tad less explosiveness in his shots and less aggression in general. He seems like more of a nice guy. Not as harsh as the big three were when they were on. He finally got a little angry at the end and played more aggressively. That edge might also take him over the top.
Meanwhile, Novak will keep playing such clean tennis. I saw him at Bercy 6 years ago against Berdych. It was like watching ping pong. He is literally like a wall. Hard to beat a wall!
He doesn't seem to be quite as strong on that side. That is my feeling too. His slice is serviceable but not great either. Fed whose backhand was a weakness always had a great slice and volley. It is amazing that he was able to improve so much on that side given were he started.
Today, I like Mussetti's better. He seems to have a great one hander. There is something kind of flamboyant about great one handers. Like Gasquet in the previous generation. Of course, Stan as well. Shapo looked like he would have one as well but the slice and volley are so poor. Just wondering what your take is on Mussetti's bh. Not sure if we chatted about him or not.
Was in person at Bercy for Fri-Sun. Djokovic simply sensational seeing as he had the shits but Dimitrov's level in the final was certainly lower than in previous matches. Very insightful analysis, am new to the blog thanks Hugh.
Has Dimitrov’s forehand always been an outside setup? Going back to arguably his best match ever against Nadal AO semi 2017, he appears to have a much fuller takeback and a much more dangerous forehand.
Didn't Federer's forehand change over time to gradually become more of an outside setup? I wonder what factors cause such a change, and even more so assuming the player is aware of what makes for good technicals.
I think the player actually tends to have a very simplified understanding of how they hit the ball; a more technical understanding of the game leads to worse play generally
Nothing really, I don’t know what leads to those changes either. I would guess that Fed doesn’t understand it in terms of “ferris wheel” and “outside setup” though. Nalbandian (amazing backhand) described his own as being “all in the rotation” and not much more
I think Federer's forehand started to change with the racquet change; it was a little lighter and bigger head I believe. But perhaps the fact that he tried to hold a very aggressive court position also instinctively prompted a shorter/outside take back. I agree with Eddie that most pros don't think about this too much; they rely on their instincts and adapt unconsciously a lot of the time. (not all the time)
I think I could see the fuller takeback through AO2020, so I think the change happened over the COVID break or the truncated back end of the 2020 season.
From the limited amount of footage I've been able to watch these last months, I feel that Dimitrov has been choosing to slice more backhands for a while, is that right? In general, I feel there's been a bit of an upwards trend for the backhand slice across the field this autumn season, with Dimitrov being the most prominent non-Evans example. Not sure if it's just highlights-rally-bias or if it's a real thing - are folks who watch enough full matches seeing this trend as well?
I think that it has become like a game of chicken with regard to power in the modern game. The slice helps to slow things down and it stays low which some with more extreme grips hate. Ash Barty made it work for the women. It might be that some men took notice. Great observation!
What are your thoughts on Tsitsipas slice shot this week? It looks clunky and ugly, but he used it to soundly beat Zverev and Kachanov. It fell apart when he faced someone that could attack it with the forehand in Dimitrov, but could Tsitsipas still develop that shot? In theory, if he could hone it, it could save him from the purgatory he is stuck in the past couple years, unable to do anything on his backhand side, right?
He could definitely improve it, he tends to float balls with it rather than actually slice them low. Still worked against Zvervev and Kachanov whose timing on slow and lowish balls isn't great due to forehand deficiencies
The modern player whether one or two handed backhand players, generally have weak slices. Shapo and Tsitsipas both have pretty weak slices. My feeling is that the modern game favors topspin with deep spinny balls. Interestingly, Nadal began to slice more for a while in order to try and slow the game down. I remember him using it against Djokovic a lot about 10 years ago. Ash Barty used it to torture the women. I think a really biting low slice would definitely help Dimitrov.
How is it that with top juniors (such as Shapo and Tsitsipas were years ago) that they never had/felt the need to develop a proper BH slice shot? One would think that it should come more naturally to one-handers, but regardless I've always thought that the slice is a basic shot to have in the repertoire with value in particular situations. Is it because the junior game is that different from pro-level where a top junior player can effectively get away with not developing a good slice so long as the offensive aspects of their game are strong enough? I recall Tsitsipas saying in an interview that his inclination as a junior was to always drive the ball with topspin.
It's a good question. I don't have a good answer though. My hunch is that modern equipment just makes learning topspin easier, so slices/blocks/finesse have been lost/not practiced as much
That is my sense too. The strings allow for a lot of topspin. They are also dead so that you cannot feel the ball very well. Slice is underrated and not valued at the junior level. The spread of the two hander also means that most juniors don't see anyone using slice.
I also think that one handers differ in their progression. Fed sliced first and then learned topspin later. My guess is that Wawrinka and Gasquet hit topspin first and then sliced later. It is almost as if one of the backhands is more natural.
Finally, there is the idea that one handers are weaker and that it is a more difficult shot to hit well. If someone doesn't have a really good topspin 1hbh, then coaches would immediately switch them to two. It becomes a litmus test and then one handers spend the rest of their days trying to prove that they can outslug a two hander. I have heard many parents talk about how their child was not allowed to hit one handed because it was going to be a weak shot.
One more question. Grigor seems to have a really good running forehand. He really defends well on that side. Also wondering what your thoughts are on his running forehand. As you noted, Sampras was the king a couple of generations ago. It feels like he could hit that running wide forehand really well. It was make or break but he pulled it off enough to scare opponents when they made him run wide.
In general I think eastern forehands have an advantage on the run (i.e., once your legs can't be used in service of power as much) because that grip can generate linear power more naturally compared to more extreme grips.
Not very complicated to see what happens in this one. The slice helped but it was not enough against a player that can win on automatic pilot these days.
Dimitrov is looking like and up and comer this fall. His serve has lost some of its hitch. But not enough. That is why I think it goes off on him. Without the fluidity of a very good server it will always be a bit of a lottery. Under pressure he will almost always miss his first serve. Meanwhile, Djokovic's looks silky smooth these days. He even hit a second serve ace. The other issue for Dimitrov and it looks like it is true of many one handers is that they are not Stan. I know I sound like a broken record but he is the only one who really dominated off that wing. He could hit winners and his slice was solid. Dimitrov's game looks better but the only way to really climb would be to loosen up on the serve once and for all. If he could create a more fluid serve, my guess is that it would be more reliable and that he could ride it out more.
I have been watching Grigor and feeling that he is worth watching because he reminds me so much of Roger. Then, I see just a tad less explosiveness in his shots and less aggression in general. He seems like more of a nice guy. Not as harsh as the big three were when they were on. He finally got a little angry at the end and played more aggressively. That edge might also take him over the top.
Meanwhile, Novak will keep playing such clean tennis. I saw him at Bercy 6 years ago against Berdych. It was like watching ping pong. He is literally like a wall. Hard to beat a wall!
Grigor's one-hander, while pretty, has always been a bit of a weakness.
He doesn't seem to be quite as strong on that side. That is my feeling too. His slice is serviceable but not great either. Fed whose backhand was a weakness always had a great slice and volley. It is amazing that he was able to improve so much on that side given were he started.
Today, I like Mussetti's better. He seems to have a great one hander. There is something kind of flamboyant about great one handers. Like Gasquet in the previous generation. Of course, Stan as well. Shapo looked like he would have one as well but the slice and volley are so poor. Just wondering what your take is on Mussetti's bh. Not sure if we chatted about him or not.
Yeah I like Musetti's backhand. Very different style though with a much deeper court position than Grigor.
Was in person at Bercy for Fri-Sun. Djokovic simply sensational seeing as he had the shits but Dimitrov's level in the final was certainly lower than in previous matches. Very insightful analysis, am new to the blog thanks Hugh.
Has Dimitrov’s forehand always been an outside setup? Going back to arguably his best match ever against Nadal AO semi 2017, he appears to have a much fuller takeback and a much more dangerous forehand.
Didn't Federer's forehand change over time to gradually become more of an outside setup? I wonder what factors cause such a change, and even more so assuming the player is aware of what makes for good technicals.
I think the player actually tends to have a very simplified understanding of how they hit the ball; a more technical understanding of the game leads to worse play generally
Nothing really, I don’t know what leads to those changes either. I would guess that Fed doesn’t understand it in terms of “ferris wheel” and “outside setup” though. Nalbandian (amazing backhand) described his own as being “all in the rotation” and not much more
So what are you saying about Federer's shift from ferris wheel to outside setup?
I think Federer's forehand started to change with the racquet change; it was a little lighter and bigger head I believe. But perhaps the fact that he tried to hold a very aggressive court position also instinctively prompted a shorter/outside take back. I agree with Eddie that most pros don't think about this too much; they rely on their instincts and adapt unconsciously a lot of the time. (not all the time)
I think I could see the fuller takeback through AO2020, so I think the change happened over the COVID break or the truncated back end of the 2020 season.
From the limited amount of footage I've been able to watch these last months, I feel that Dimitrov has been choosing to slice more backhands for a while, is that right? In general, I feel there's been a bit of an upwards trend for the backhand slice across the field this autumn season, with Dimitrov being the most prominent non-Evans example. Not sure if it's just highlights-rally-bias or if it's a real thing - are folks who watch enough full matches seeing this trend as well?
I think that it has become like a game of chicken with regard to power in the modern game. The slice helps to slow things down and it stays low which some with more extreme grips hate. Ash Barty made it work for the women. It might be that some men took notice. Great observation!
What are your thoughts on Tsitsipas slice shot this week? It looks clunky and ugly, but he used it to soundly beat Zverev and Kachanov. It fell apart when he faced someone that could attack it with the forehand in Dimitrov, but could Tsitsipas still develop that shot? In theory, if he could hone it, it could save him from the purgatory he is stuck in the past couple years, unable to do anything on his backhand side, right?
He could definitely improve it, he tends to float balls with it rather than actually slice them low. Still worked against Zvervev and Kachanov whose timing on slow and lowish balls isn't great due to forehand deficiencies
The modern player whether one or two handed backhand players, generally have weak slices. Shapo and Tsitsipas both have pretty weak slices. My feeling is that the modern game favors topspin with deep spinny balls. Interestingly, Nadal began to slice more for a while in order to try and slow the game down. I remember him using it against Djokovic a lot about 10 years ago. Ash Barty used it to torture the women. I think a really biting low slice would definitely help Dimitrov.
How is it that with top juniors (such as Shapo and Tsitsipas were years ago) that they never had/felt the need to develop a proper BH slice shot? One would think that it should come more naturally to one-handers, but regardless I've always thought that the slice is a basic shot to have in the repertoire with value in particular situations. Is it because the junior game is that different from pro-level where a top junior player can effectively get away with not developing a good slice so long as the offensive aspects of their game are strong enough? I recall Tsitsipas saying in an interview that his inclination as a junior was to always drive the ball with topspin.
It's a good question. I don't have a good answer though. My hunch is that modern equipment just makes learning topspin easier, so slices/blocks/finesse have been lost/not practiced as much
That is my sense too. The strings allow for a lot of topspin. They are also dead so that you cannot feel the ball very well. Slice is underrated and not valued at the junior level. The spread of the two hander also means that most juniors don't see anyone using slice.
I also think that one handers differ in their progression. Fed sliced first and then learned topspin later. My guess is that Wawrinka and Gasquet hit topspin first and then sliced later. It is almost as if one of the backhands is more natural.
Finally, there is the idea that one handers are weaker and that it is a more difficult shot to hit well. If someone doesn't have a really good topspin 1hbh, then coaches would immediately switch them to two. It becomes a litmus test and then one handers spend the rest of their days trying to prove that they can outslug a two hander. I have heard many parents talk about how their child was not allowed to hit one handed because it was going to be a weak shot.